i am a long-time Fellow of the Theosophical Society and a member of their Science Group, also a National Lecturer of the Indian Section of the Society. i helped create the official website of the Theosophical Society international Headquarters at: http://www.ts-adyar.org.
i also maintain a website at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/divya-jnana/
for sharing my PowerPoint presentations on the Theosophical Teachings concerning Creation, Evolution thru Manvantaras (Cycles and sub-cycles), the Constitutive Principles of Human Being, Prana and Chakras, the Path of Spiritual Advance & the Great Teachers. These are available in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Hindi, Kannada and Telugu versions.
Attached please find a brief Note on ‘Systems Thinking,’ which I downloaded from the Center for Ecoliteracy. This marks the current shift in thinking.
I've studied Spiral Dynamics for a while now, where this idea is quite well documented--the "yellow", systemic valuing Meme. (A "meme" being a quantum of valuing, which goes well with the RS "discrete unit" postulate). The document is actually showing the transition from systemic to "holistic" thinking, where communities and patterns become the predominant valuing bias.
Ecoliteracy wrote:
From Objects to Relationships
An ecosystem is not just a collection of species, but is a community. Communities, whether ecosystems or human systems, are made up of sets, or networks. An ecosystem is not just a collection of relationships. In the systems view, the "objects" of study are networks of relationships. Organizations, including schools, that adopt this perspective are more likely to emphasize relationship-based processes such as cooperation and decision-making by consensus.
The concepts described in the article are good, and IMHO necessary for Reciprocal System study and research. The RS is a system, not just a collection of ad-hoc equations as conventional science is. It requires at least a systemic approach to understand.
The problem, however, is that most people are still stuck in what Spiral Dynamics calls "Tier 1", where a singular set of values is considered to be the whole system, such as strong religious conviction, corporate entrepreneurship, or the New Age movement. We see it in legacy physics and astronomy constantly. The "I have the right answer and if you don't believe it, you're wrong" attitude. The Tier 2 thinkers, whom start with the systemic approach and move up to a holistic approach, seem to know they don't have all the answers, which is why they end up studying the "whole", and the patterns and processes within, and are constantly on the lookout for new ideas and patterns. For example, look at DaveLook's posts here--he's found some amazing patterns in universal constants that we've never encountered before. Compare that to Satz's posts on the RS forum, where if you disagree, you're burned at the stake as a heretic.
I've written a lot about the valuing systems on my Antiquatis site, where we try to work to the holistic valuing Meme. One of the conclusions of that research was that if you try to push a Tier 1 person into a Tier 2 system, you get "evangelists". Tier 1 cannot think in systemic terms, and must convert back to a "part" view. That is where I start joking about the "Fundamental Postulatists" in ISUS, and why RS2 is on its own site!
It would be nice if those principles could be followed by everyone, but as they say in the old farming community from which I come, "You can't teach a pig to sing. It's a lot of work--and annoys the pig!"
But the article does show where the leading edge of conceptualization is going, so at least the apprehension is out there.
A very entertaining and informative (or irritating and confusing, depending on your point
of view) presentation of "Spiral Dynamics" and where it's gone can be found in Ken
Wilber's book "Boomeritis".
Wilber's extension of Meme theory is fairly significant. He calls it Integral theory
and has a website http://www.integralinstitute.org/
--- On Wed, 7/23/08, bperet (email removed) wrote:
Quote:
From: bperet (email removed)
Subject: [RS2] Re: Systems Thinking
To: (email removed)
Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 3:35 PM
k_nehru wrote: Attached please find a brief Note on
"Systems thinking" is facilitated by the recognition of how interiors (properties of 'mind') and exteriors (properties of 'matter') correlate.
The flatland worldview is eventually subsumed in a new worldview ushering in Tier 2 valuing and cognition. This eventually happens when one's 'interiority' is seen to have relevance to the way the universe works (the Hermetic saying "as above, so below"). In Jungian terms, it is the natural result of the shadow integration of the individuation process. Unfortunately, during this transition as the individual is trying to determine who they are, it seems we must first bare a great deal of superficiality, 'pre-trans fallacies', and unwarranted psychological projection. It's quite a mess.
k_nehru
Tue, 07/15/2008 - 23:32
Permalink
More PP Shows on Ancient Wisdom
i am a long-time Fellow of the Theosophical Society and a member of their Science Group, also a National Lecturer of the Indian Section of the Society. i helped create the official website of the Theosophical Society international Headquarters at: http://www.ts-adyar.org.
i also maintain a website at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/divya-jnana/
for sharing my PowerPoint presentations on the Theosophical Teachings concerning Creation, Evolution thru Manvantaras (Cycles and sub-cycles), the Constitutive Principles of Human Being, Prana and Chakras, the Path of Spiritual Advance & the Great Teachers. These are available in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Hindi, Kannada and Telugu versions.
Nehru
bperet
Thu, 07/17/2008 - 01:04
Permalink
Re: Space; Time; Ethical Sector
Hi Nehru,
Are you talking about three Logoi, or the three aspects/outpourings of the Solar Logos, as shown in your Powerpoint presentation?
k_nehru
Thu, 07/17/2008 - 23:39
Permalink
Space; Time; Ethical Sector
Hi Bruce:
Both are the same. The Three Aspects of the Solar Logos ARE the Three Logoi.
Nehru
k_nehru
Sat, 07/19/2008 - 00:30
Permalink
Systems Thinking
Bruce
Attached please find a brief Note on ‘Systems Thinking,’ which I downloaded from the Center for Ecoliteracy. This marks the current shift in thinking.
Nehru
bperet
Wed, 07/23/2008 - 13:35
Permalink
Re: Systems Thinking
I've studied Spiral Dynamics for a while now, where this idea is quite well documented--the "yellow", systemic valuing Meme. (A "meme" being a quantum of valuing, which goes well with the RS "discrete unit" postulate). The document is actually showing the transition from systemic to "holistic" thinking, where communities and patterns become the predominant valuing bias.
The concepts described in the article are good, and IMHO necessary for Reciprocal System study and research. The RS is a system, not just a collection of ad-hoc equations as conventional science is. It requires at least a systemic approach to understand.
The problem, however, is that most people are still stuck in what Spiral Dynamics calls "Tier 1", where a singular set of values is considered to be the whole system, such as strong religious conviction, corporate entrepreneurship, or the New Age movement. We see it in legacy physics and astronomy constantly. The "I have the right answer and if you don't believe it, you're wrong" attitude. The Tier 2 thinkers, whom start with the systemic approach and move up to a holistic approach, seem to know they don't have all the answers, which is why they end up studying the "whole", and the patterns and processes within, and are constantly on the lookout for new ideas and patterns. For example, look at DaveLook's posts here--he's found some amazing patterns in universal constants that we've never encountered before. Compare that to Satz's posts on the RS forum, where if you disagree, you're burned at the stake as a heretic.
I've written a lot about the valuing systems on my Antiquatis site, where we try to work to the holistic valuing Meme. One of the conclusions of that research was that if you try to push a Tier 1 person into a Tier 2 system, you get "evangelists". Tier 1 cannot think in systemic terms, and must convert back to a "part" view. That is where I start joking about the "Fundamental Postulatists" in ISUS, and why RS2 is on its own site!
It would be nice if those principles could be followed by everyone, but as they say in the old farming community from which I come, "You can't teach a pig to sing. It's a lot of work--and annoys the pig!"
But the article does show where the leading edge of conceptualization is going, so at least the apprehension is out there.
k_nehru
Thu, 07/24/2008 - 01:23
Permalink
Space; Time; Ethical Sector
I agree with you, Bruce.
Nehru
RMohan
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 12:48
Permalink
Systems Thinking
Tier 1....aka "Flatland".
A very entertaining and informative (or irritating and confusing, depending on your point
of view) presentation of "Spiral Dynamics" and where it's gone can be found in Ken
Wilber's book "Boomeritis".
Wilber's extension of Meme theory is fairly significant. He calls it Integral theory
and has a website http://www.integralinstitute.org/
--- On Wed, 7/23/08, bperet (email removed) wrote:
MWells
Fri, 07/25/2008 - 18:17
Permalink
Re: Systems Thinking
"Systems thinking" is facilitated by the recognition of how interiors (properties of 'mind') and exteriors (properties of 'matter') correlate.
The flatland worldview is eventually subsumed in a new worldview ushering in Tier 2 valuing and cognition. This eventually happens when one's 'interiority' is seen to have relevance to the way the universe works (the Hermetic saying "as above, so below"). In Jungian terms, it is the natural result of the shadow integration of the individuation process. Unfortunately, during this transition as the individual is trying to determine who they are, it seems we must first bare a great deal of superficiality, 'pre-trans fallacies', and unwarranted psychological projection. It's quite a mess.